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Menneske
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Menneske Reply with quote

This is 4742416, SH (30). I've made five not-very-helpful moves.

Code:

+---------------+---------------+-------------+
| 358  238  7   | 234 1    48   | 9   358 6   |
| 6    1238 258 | 9   238  7    | 135 358 4   |
| 1389 4    89  | 5   38   6    | 7   2   13  |
+---------------+---------------+-------------+
| 149  7    3   | 12  245  159  | 8   6   159 |
| 2    18   489 | 6   3458 4589 | 15  35  7   |
| 189  5    6   | 13  7    189  | 2   4   139 |
+---------------+---------------+-------------+
| 458  9    458 | 7   45   3    | 6   1   2   |
| 135  6    15  | 8   9    2    | 4   7   35  |
| 7    23   245 | 14  6    145  | 35  9   8   |
+---------------+---------------+-------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
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peterj



Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marty, you can add a Kite(3) r5, c4 to your list of not-so-helpful moves...

I am going to work on it after dinner... looks fishy to me?
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Menneske Reply with quote

Marty R. wrote:
This is 4742416, SH (30). I've made five not-very-helpful moves.

Check [c3] for another not-very-helpful move. After that, you need to find an easy Kite and a difficult Kite. They'll help for awhile.
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peterj



Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Marty's grid...
This "fish" move stood out - I saw it as an "almost" x-wing but it's probably a mutant halibut or something!
Code:
kraken x-wing
x-wing(3) r3, r8
||
(3)r3c5 - r5c5=r6c4 ; r6c9<>3

xy-chain ; (8=1)r5c2 - (1=5)r5c7 - (5=3)r9c7 - (3=1)r2c7 - (1=3)r3c9 - (3=8)r3c5 ; r5c5<>8

skyscraper(4) c1, c4 ; r7c5<>4, r9c3<>4

BUG+1 ; r2c2=8


Last edited by peterj on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice move with that 3, Peter. I learned that as a Fin Transport.

As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable.
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marty R. wrote:
As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable.

Code:
 r5c4    2-String Kite                   <> 3    r1c8
 r3c2    2-String Kite (grouped)         <> 8    r5c5   (terrible to spot)
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterj wrote:
From Marty's grid...
This "fish" move stood out - I saw it as an "almost" x-wing but it's probably a mutant halibut or something!
[code]kraken x-wing
x-wing(3) r3, r8
||
(3)r3c5 - r5c5=r6c4 ; r6c9<>3

Peter,

If you add [b5], then you have a finned Franken Swordfish r38b5\c159 w/fin cell r6c4.

It follows by thinking of transporting (3)r3c5 to (3)r6c4 via the strong link/inference in [b5] -- as you effectively demonstrated.
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daj95376 wrote:
Marty R. wrote:
As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable.

Code:
 r5c4    2-String Kite                   <> 3    r1c8
 r3c2    2-String Kite (grouped)         <> 8    r5c5   (terrible to spot)

Danny, I'm sorry, I don't have a clue where those kites are. R5c4? It's solved. Question Question Question
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peterj



Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marty R. wrote:
daj95376 wrote:
Marty R. wrote:
As to kites, I've looked at the boxes twice and can only find one pivoted in box 1, on 2, flightless and non-transportable.

Code:
 r5c4    2-String Kite                   <> 3    r1c8
 r3c2    2-String Kite (grouped)         <> 8    r5c5   (terrible to spot)

Danny, I'm sorry, I don't have a clue where those kites are. R5c4? It's solved. Question Question Question

Marty, I think Danny's notation is a little confusing here - I think r5c4 means the Kite is in row 5 and column 4 (pivot in box 5). That's the Kite(3) I mentioned earlier. The grouped kite on 8 is row 3 and column 2 (pivot in box 1). As Danny said hard to see - both of the links are grouped - I certainly did not see it!
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a kite on 3. For r1c8<>3 I do see simple coloring, as opposed to a kite.
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peterj



Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 974
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From your posted grid
Code:
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 358  238   7   | a234 1     48   | 9   58-3 6  |
| 6    1238  258 | 9    238   7    | 135 358  4  |
| 1389 4     89  | 5    b38   6    | 7   2    13 |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 149  7     3   | 12   245   159  | 8   6    159|
| 2    18    489 | 6    b3458 4589 | 15  b35  7  |
| 189  5     6   | a13  7     189  | 2   4    139|
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 458  9     458 | 7    45    3    | 6   1    2  |
| 135  6     15  | 8    9     2    | 4   7    35 |
| 7    23    245 | 14   6     145  | 35  9    8  |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
kite(3) (3)r1c4=r6c4 - r5c5=r5c8 ; r1c8<>3

+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 358  a238  7   | 234  1     48   | 9   583  6  |
| 6    a1238 258 | 9    238   7    | 135 358  4  |
| b1389 4    b89 | 5    b38   6    | 7   2    13 |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 149  7     3   | 12   245   159  | 8   6    159|
| 2    a18   489 | 6    345-8 4589 | 15  35   7  |
| 189  5     6   | 13   7     189  | 2   4    139|
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
| 458  9     458 | 7    45    3    | 6   1    2  |
| 135  6     15  | 8    9     2    | 4   7    35 |
| 7    23    245 | 14   6     145  | 35  9    8  |
+----------------+-----------------+-------------+
grouped kite(8) (8)r5c2=r12c2 - r3c13=r3c5 ; r5c5<>8
 

Quote:
I do see simple colouring

maybe we are just crossing-wires on names? Are you reserving "kite" for the case where there is only a weak link in the pivot block i.e the multi colouring case as opposed to the simple colouring case? In either case it's still a kite.
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
maybe we are just crossing-wires on names? Are you reserving "kite" for the case where there is only a weak link in the pivot block i.e the multi colouring case as opposed to the simple colouring case? In either case it's still a kite.

Peter, the way I learned it, a kite is nothing more than a skyscraper, except perpendicular rather than parallel. It is a simple form of multi-coloring; the latter must be weakly linked, i.e., more than two candidates in a house. Without the weak link it is a simple coloring chain.

However, there are examples of kites in various places which are not weakly linked, so maybe a permanent state of confusion will exist. It is my belief that any techniques should be reduced to their simplest form, i.e., simple coloring in this case. I'll just have to be more aware that not everyone uses the same terminology.
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peterj



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Understand your view, but I think these names belong in different categories.
For me I think of colouring and multi-colouring as a technique/a method that helps the solver find a single digit pattern - essentially x-chains/turbot fish. Some of those patterns have names - like Kite and Skyscraper, some don't. Similarly with Medusa Colouring, a method, and assorted named AIC/wings that it might produce, a pattern.
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
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Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The essential difference between simple and multi-coloring as I was taught, is that simple coloring consists of a single chain and multi-coloring two chains. That's why I was taught that skyscrapers and kites are multi, because they were weakly linked and, therefore, two chains.
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Marty R.



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Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter, I can follow the grouped kite on 8, but I doubt I'd be able to recognize one. And like the other one, I'm not sure it's a kite, but it's certainly grouped. Very Happy
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 Marty's grid after r8c3=1
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  358   238   7     |  234   1     48    |  9     358   6     |
 |  6     1238  258   |  9     238   7     |  135   358   4     |
 |  1389  4     89    |  5     38    6     |  7     2     13    |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  149   7     3     |  12    245   159   |  8     6     159   |
 |  2     18    489   |  6     3458  4589  |  15    35    7     |
 |  189   5     6     |  13    7     189   |  2     4     139   |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  458   9     458   |  7     45    3     |  6     1     2     |
 |  35    6     1     |  8     9     2     |  4     7     35    |
 |  7     23    245   |  14    6     145   |  35    9     8     |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 67 eliminations remain

Code:
 Colors on (3) Kite cells
 +-----------------------------------+
 |  3  3  .  | B3  .  .  |  . -3  .  |
 |  .  3  .  |  .  3  .  |  3  3  .  |
 |  3  .  .  |  .  3  .  |  .  .  3  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  3  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |  .  .  .  |  . B3  .  |  . G3  .  |
 |  .  .  .  | G3  .  .  |  .  .  3  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  3  |  .  .  .  |
 |  3  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  3  |
 |  .  3  .  |  .  .  .  |  3  .  .  |
 +-----------------------------------+

Code:
 Multiple Colors equivalent on (3) Kite cells
 +-----------------------------------+
 |  3  3  .  | B3  .  .  |  . -3  .  |
 |  .  3  .  |  .  3  .  |  3  3  .  |
 |  3  .  .  |  .  3  .  |  .  .  3  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  3  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |  .  .  .  |  . P3  .  |  . A3  .  |
 |  .  .  .  | G3  .  .  |  .  .  3  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  3  |  .  .  .  |
 |  3  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  3  |
 |  .  3  .  |  .  .  .  |  3  .  .  |
 +-----------------------------------+

A rose by any other name still drives my allergies crazy!

Code:
 Multiple Colors equivalent on (8) Kite cells
 +-----------------------------------+
 |  8 P8  .  |  .  .  8  |  .  8  .  |
 |  . P8  8  |  .  8  .  |  .  8  .  |
 | G8  . G8  |  . B8  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  8  .  .  |
 |  . A8  8  |  . -8  8  |  .  .  .  |
 |  8  .  .  |  .  .  8  |  .  .  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  8  .  8  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |  .  .  .  |  8  .  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  8  |
 +-----------------------------------+
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 after basics, (3) Kite, and (8) Kite
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  358   38-2  7     | a23    1     4     |  9     58    6     |
 |  6     1238  25    |  9     238   7     |  135   358   4     |
 |  1389  4     89    |  5     38    6     |  7     2     13    |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  149   7     3     |  12    24    59    |  8     6     159   |
 |  2     18    489   |  6     34    589   |  15    35    7     |
 |  189   5     6     | b13    7     89    |  2     4    c139   |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  48    9     48    |  7     5     3     |  6     1     2     |
 |  35    6     1     |  8     9     2     |  4     7    d35    |
 |  7    f23    25    |  4     6     1     | e35    9     8     |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 50 eliminations remain

Code:
(2=3)r1c4 - r6c4=r6c9 - r8c9=r9c7 - (3=2)r9c2  =>  r1c2<>2

[Edit: deleted most of the message body. I just realized that I was describing a 6-cell W-Wing. Aaaagh!]


Last edited by daj95376 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
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peterj



Joined: 26 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny, slightly confused as to if you really mean r5 or r6 Question Exclamation In the last AIC (the w-wing-like one) it should be r6c4=r6c9, but there is also a strong link in r5 for the rest of the discussion which potentially makes the long x-chain you describe Question
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Peter,

Corrections done (hopefully).

Regards, Danny
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tlanglet



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills

PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed reading all the posts for the re-fresher course. It is also interesting how terminology can be confusing even in basic techniques.

I still like the 'almost" moves and used one for this two step solution.

(8=3)r3c5-(3=1)r3c9-r46c9=r5c7-(1=8)r5c2; r5c5<>8

Code:
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 358   238   7     | 23    1     4     | 9     358   6     |
 | 6     1238  25    | 9     238   7     | 135   358   4     |
 | 1389  4     89    | 5     38    6     | 7     2     13    |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 149   7     3     | 12    24    59    | 8     6     159   |
 | 2     18    489   | 6     34    589   | 15    35    7     |
 | 189   5     6     | 13    7     89    | 2     4     139   |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 48    9     48    | 7     5     3     | 6     1     2     |
 | 35    6     1     | 8     9     2     | 4     7     35    |
 | 7     23    25    | 4     6     1     | 35    9     8     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

Axy-wing 23-8 vertex (23)r1c4 pincers (28)r1c2 & (38)r3c5 with fin (3)r1c2; r3c13<>8
Code:
 If fin is true then
(3)r1c2  -r1c4=r6c4-(3)r6c9 =(3)r3c9-(3=8)r3c5;
       \                  /
         -r9c2=r9c7-(3)r8c9

Ted
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