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May 5 VH

 
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Earl



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 677
Location: Victoria, KS

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject: May 5 VH Reply with quote

Must be a mistake !

Solution: Basics alone will solve it. Hidden triples was the greatest challenge.


Early Earl
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played the Type 2 UR (because it was there), but as I went along I thought that maybe basics alone would've done it.
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crunched



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess this is an example of a puzzle that is too hard for me to solve Because it lacks any wings. Here is far as I could get.

Code:

+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178 6     | 2  58 1789   |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5   12478 | 79 3  146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  24  9     | 14 45 146    |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 7     56  26  | 8    246 3     | 14 9  145    |
| 256   3   1   | 26   9   24    | 8  7  45     |
| 89    4   89  | 5    17  17    | 3  6  2      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 468   67  3   | 9    26  278   | 5  1  478    |
| 1468  2   68  | 1678 3   5     | 79 48 4789   |
| 189   179 5   | 4    178 178   | 6  2  3      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crunched wrote:
I guess this is an example of a puzzle that is too hard for me to solve Because it lacks any wings. Here is far as I could get.

Code:

+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178 6     | 2  58 1789   |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5   12478 | 79 3  146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  24  9     | 14 45 146    |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 7     56  26  | 8    246 3     | 14 9  145    |
| 256   3   1   | 26   9   24    | 8  7  45     |
| 89    4   89  | 5    17  17    | 3  6  2      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 468   67  3   | 9    26  278   | 5  1  478    |
| 1468  2   68  | 1678 3   5     | 79 48 4789   |
| 189   179 5   | 4    178 178   | 6  2  3      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site


on the contrary,
your grid has a x-wing on 4's
rows 2 and 5
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George Woods



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 304
Location: Dorset UK

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: or the W-wing Reply with quote

after 7 moves (and recognisinga naked triplet) a W wing converts the puzzle to "medium"!
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swando



Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Surrey, BC. Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a few x wings starting with 4 did it..Actually more of a Medium in hardness I found as no xy or xyz were needed.. But then again I hate hidden candidates found in some of the mediums!
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arkietech



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1834
Location: Northwest Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storm_norm wrote:
crunched wrote:
I guess this is an example of a puzzle that is too hard for me to solve Because it lacks any wings. Here is far as I could get.

Code:

+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178 6     | 2  58 1789   |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5   12478 | 79 3  146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  24  9     | 14 45 146    |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 7     56  26  | 8    246 3     | 14 9  145    |
| 256   3   1   | 26   9   24    | 8  7  45     |
| 89    4   89  | 5    17  17    | 3  6  2      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 468   67  3   | 9    26  278   | 5  1  478    |
| 1468  2   68  | 1678 3   5     | 79 48 4789   |
| 189   179 5   | 4    178 178   | 6  2  3      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site


on the contrary,
your grid has a x-wing on 4's
rows 2 and 5


There is also a hidden pair in row 2
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crunched



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh...Norm you are correct. The x wing on the 4s did it for me. I can't see a hidden pair in row 2. Can you elaborate?

arkietech wrote:
storm_norm wrote:
crunched wrote:
I guess this is an example of a puzzle that is too hard for me to solve Because it lacks any wings. Here is far as I could get.

Code:

+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178 6     | 2  58 1789   |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5   12478 | 79 3  146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  24  9     | 14 45 146    |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 7     56  26  | 8    246 3     | 14 9  145    |
| 256   3   1   | 26   9   24    | 8  7  45     |
| 89    4   89  | 5    17  17    | 3  6  2      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 468   67  3   | 9    26  278   | 5  1  478    |
| 1468  2   68  | 1678 3   5     | 79 48 4789   |
| 189   179 5   | 4    178 178   | 6  2  3      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site


on the contrary,
your grid has a x-wing on 4's
rows 2 and 5


There is also a hidden pair in row 2
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arkietech



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1834
Location: Northwest Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crunched wrote:
Ahhh...Norm you are correct. The x wing on the 4s did it for me. I can't see a hidden pair in row 2. Can you elaborate?

There is a 48 in columns 6 and 9 of row 2 since it is nowhere else in row 2 r2c69 must be 48 so you can remove other candidates in r2c6 and r2c9 solving the puzzle.
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is a 48 in columns 6 and 9 of row 2 since it is nowhere else in row 2 r2c69 must be 48 so you can remove other candidates in r2c6 and r2c9 solving the puzzle.

I can't spot hidden pairs, but I can often spot the complementary subsets. Since there's already an 8 in r4c4, remove the 8s from elsewhere in c4 and then in row 2 is the 12679 quint which leaves the 48 naked pair after eliminations.
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cgordon



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 769
Location: ontario, canada

PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I needed both the x-wing on 4 and the Type 2 UR. I rarely seem to find useful Type 2 URs and don't think I've ever spotted a Type 3 - though I wasn't sure whether there was the makings of a Type 3 for <14> in C79. Probably wasn't.
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Ema Nymton



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.

Truly a challenging puzzle; as it should be.

[quote="arkietech"][quote="storm_norm"]
crunched wrote:
I guess this is an example of a puzzle that is too hard for me to solve Because it lacks any wings. Here is far as I could get.

Code:

+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178 6     | 2  58 1789   |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5   12478 | 79 3  146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  24  9     | 14 45 146    |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 7     56  26  |? 8?  246 3     | 14 9  145    |
| 256   3   1   | 26   9   24    | 8  7  45     |
| 89    4   89  | 5    17  17    | 3  6  2      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 468   67  3   | 9    26  278   | 5  1  478    |
| 1468  2   68  | 1678 3   5     | 79 48 4789   |
| 189   179 5   | 4    178 178   | 6  2  3      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+


Please explain how you were able to determine '8' for r4c4. I cannot get there from here. Thank you in advance.

~@:o?
.
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arkietech



Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 1834
Location: Northwest Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ema Nymton"].

Truly a challenging puzzle; as it should be.

[quote="arkietech"]
storm_norm wrote:
crunched wrote:
I guess this is an example of a puzzle that is too hard for me to solve Because it lacks any wings. Here is far as I could get.

Code:

+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178 6     | 2  58 1789   |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5   12478 | 79 3  146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  24  9     | 14 45 146    |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 7     56  26  |? 8?  246 3     | 14 9  145    |
| 256   3   1   | 26   9   24    | 8  7  45     |
| 89    4   89  | 5    17  17    | 3  6  2      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+
| 468   67  3   | 9    26  278   | 5  1  478    |
| 1468  2   68  | 1678 3   5     | 79 48 4789   |
| 189   179 5   | 4    178 178   | 6  2  3      |
+---------------+----------------+--------------+


Please explain how you were able to determine '8' for r4c4. I cannot get there from here. Thank you in advance.

~@Surprised?
.
This puzzle was flawed from the start. But 8 is the only number that can go in r4c4. Confused
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George Woods



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 304
Location: Dorset UK

PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do you sya that This puzzle was flawed from the start?. It seems to me a pefectly valid puzzle - The key feature is the triples in col 5 that gives the 8 in Box 5, but also sets up |(for me anyway) the very obvious W-Wing in 24 giving 4 in r3c5 and hence a straightforwarsd solution!
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is another approach
this is the puzzle without any basics performed.
just to note that the 6 in r6c8 was a naked single

Code:
+---------------+------------------+-----------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178   6     | 2    58  15789  |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5     12478 | 1479 3   146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  124   9     | 14   456 1456   |
+---------------+------------------+-----------------+
| 7     56  268 | 1268 12468 3     | 14   9   1456   |
| 2569  3   1   | 26   2469  24    | 8    7   456    |
|  89   4    89 | 5    16789 178   | 13   6   2      |
+---------------+------------------+-----------------+
| 3468  67  368 | 9    2678  278   | 5    1   3478   |
| 14689 2   689 | 1678 3     1578  | 479  48  4789   |
| 1389  179 5   | 4    1278  1278  | 6    28  3789   |
+---------------+------------------+-----------------+

that naked single (6) r6c8 opens up the {8,9} naked pair in r6c13 which eliminates the 9 in r6c5, this leaves the hidden single 9 in r5c5.
the naked pair {1,4} in column 7 eliminates the 4 in r2c7
x-wing is left on 4's r25c69
those 4's eliminated from col 4 leaves only singles and naked pairs left to solve.
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Ema Nymton



Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.

Please be patient. I am trying to improve my skills with this 'devil's gift' of a game slowly. I am able to follow the line of reasoning and logic up to this point.

Code:

+---------------+------------------+----------------+
| 1359  159 4   | 1378 178   6     | 2    58 15789  |
| 1269  169 269 | 1278 5     12478 | 1479 3  146789 |
| 12356 8   7   | 123  124   9     | 14   45 1456   |
+---------------+------------------+----------------+
| 7     56  268 | 1268 12468 3     | 14   9  145    |
| 256   3   1   | 26   9     24    | 8    7  45     |
| 89    4   89  | 5    17     17   | 3    6  2      |
+---------------+------------------+----------------+
| 468   67  3   | 9    2678  278   | 5    1  478    |
| 14689 2   689 | 1678 3     5     | 79   48 4789   |
| 189   179 5   | 4    178   178   | 6    2  3      |
+---------------+------------------+----------------+


Placing the '8' in - r4c4 - does not seem to follow any reason beyond guessing because an '8' seems to be able to go into -r4c5-.

~@:o?
.
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cgordon



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 769
Location: ontario, canada

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ema: There's a 178 triple in C5 - so the 8 can be removed from R4C5.
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