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May 6 VH
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kragzy



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:52 am    Post subject: May 6 VH Reply with quote

After the usual cleaning up operations, and one non-productive XYZ wing, I ended up here:

Code:

+-------------+------------+-------------+
| 13  4    6  | 7   39 238 | 5  1289 289 |
| 5   13   8  | 69  4  23  | 7  1269 269 |
| 29  7    29 | 1   56 58  | 46 468  3   |
+-------------+------------+-------------+
| 7   2    3  | 689 69 1   | 46 5    468 |
| 4   9    1  | 68  35 35  | 2  68   7   |
| 6   8    5  | 2   7  4   | 9  3    1   |
+-------------+------------+-------------+
| 8   15   7  | 45  12 6   | 3  249  249 |
| 239 36   29 | 34  8  7   | 1  246  5   |
| 123 1356 4  | 35  12 9   | 8  7    26  |
+-------------+------------+-------------+


I try not to use BUGs (just one of those silly purists who prefer not to rely on the unique solution theories) but on this occasion I could find no other way to solve this puzzle other than the BUG on R39C13.

What did others find?
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BEWARE of the easy way.

I must admit, I did it.

I took the UR 29 r38c13 but it absolutely totally spoiled the fun.
(Premature Elimination, or eliminatio praecox...)

After the UR, the puzzle melts down, it is only a question of how fast one can write.



Going to look for other solutions now (which means start again ...)


Last edited by nataraj on Tue May 06, 2008 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: May 6 VH Reply with quote

I did not start again. I used kragzy's grid.

kragzy wrote:

What did others find?


another (unproductive?) xyz-wing 468 box 3,6 (did not pursue this, only see it now)

The coloring way: x-wing 6 col 5,7 (opens a double xy-wing 48-68-46 boxes 3,6) and solves the puzzle

or:

generalized xy-wing pincers 13 (r2c2) and 34 (r8c4) connected by 15-45 in row 7
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andras



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Mid Wales

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heck, I did it the easy way with the UR.

Why have an Easy on the Bank Holiday and a VH on the first day back at work Wink

John
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andras wrote:
Why have an Easy on the Bank Holiday and a VH on the first day back at work Wink


Well, so you can spend more time with the family and have a busy day at work, of course. Laughing Laughing Laughing

But as you posted at 8:15 (GMT+1) I guess you had sudoku for breakfast ...
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andras



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Mid Wales

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nataraj wrote:
andras wrote:
Why have an Easy on the Bank Holiday and a VH on the first day back at work Wink


Well, so you can spend more time with the family and have a busy day at work, of course. Laughing Laughing Laughing

But as you posted at 8:15 (GMT+1) I guess you had sudoku for breakfast ...


Yup - first thing in the morning, while the brain-cells are still working. Very Happy

John
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Victor



Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 207
Location: NI

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame about the UR, which does make it trivial. Being a retired person Laughing, with family gone, I have the time to try again, and it is a nice puzzle if you ignore it.
An ER kills the <6> in r4c4, & then there's an XYZ-wing pivoted on r5c5, which exposes an X-wing in r34, which exposes an XY-wing pivoted on r8c3.
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sdq_pete



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 119
Location: Rotterdam, NL

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, the following 'X' moves solve it from the following position:

Code:

+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| 13  4    6  | 7   39  238 | 5  1289 289 |
| 5   13   8  | 69  4   23  | 7  1269 269 |
| 29  7    29 | 1   56  58  | 46 468  3   |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| 7   2    3  | 689 569 1   | 46 4568 468 |
| 4   9    1  | 68  356 35  | 2  568  7   |
| 6   8    5  | 2   7   4   | 9  3    1   |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| 8   15   7  | 45  12  6   | 3  249  249 |
| 239 36   29 | 34  8   7   | 1  2469 5   |
| 123 1356 4  | 35  12  9   | 8  7    26  |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
Code:
XYZ 356 R5C5
X    6  C57
XY  468 R3C8


Peter
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sheryl



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 64
Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't know why, but mine was just deductions. then i ended up with 29s in r27 c89 and 29s in r38 c13. this i believe led to it being a puzzle that could have more than one solution in that i placed the 2s and 9s and i could change it and put the 9s where the 2s were. does anyone know why this happend to me?
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George Woods



Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 304
Location: Dorset UK

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdq_pete wrote:
For the record, the following 'X' moves solve it from the following position:

Code:

+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| 13  4    6  | 7   39  238 | 5  1289 289 |
| 5   13   8  | 69  4   23  | 7  1269 269 |
| 29  7    29 | 1   56  58  | 46 468  3   |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| 7   2    3  | 689 569 1   | 46 4568 468 |
| 4   9    1  | 68  356 35  | 2  568  7   |
| 6   8    5  | 2   7   4   | 9  3    1   |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| 8   15   7  | 45  12  6   | 3  249  249 |
| 239 36   29 | 34  8   7   | 1  2469 5   |
| 123 1356 4  | 35  12  9   | 8  7    26  |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
Code:
XYZ 356 R5C5
X    6  C57
XY  468 R3C8


Peter


Ok I duckled it and used the DR but I am at a loss. I always find xyz tricky, and can't see this one. The pivot can be 3 5 or 6 of these 3 and 6 make r3c6 8 but a pivot value of 5 gives a complementary solution in box 2 - So where have I gone wrong in my analysis?
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheryl wrote:
i don't know why, but mine was just deductions. then i ended up with 29s in r27 c89 and 29s in r38 c13. this i believe led to it being a puzzle that could have more than one solution in that i placed the 2s and 9s and i could change it and put the 9s where the 2s were. does anyone know why this happend to me?


There is only one explanation: an error somwhere along the line. Annoying, but it happens (at least when humans solve the puzzle). Best start over again.
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

George, the xyz works as follows:

r3c5 can be 5 or 6.
if it is 5, the 5 in r4c5 is toast.
if it is 6, r5c56 turns into a naked pair 35, and again r4c5 cannot be 5.
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

{2,9} UR type 1

sheryl,
you found a Unique Rectangle type 1 on the {2,9} pairs in columns 1 and 3.



the 2 and 9 can be removed from r8c1 to avoid the deadly pattern. if you didn't already figure this out, this is the "easy" way of doing the puzzle. If the technique you uncovered is new territory, then good for you.
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I read sheryl's post was that the deadly pattern had already manifested itself, i..e. the 3 in r8c1 was GONE ...

That would certainly be the result of a mistake, since 3 in r8c1 is part of the solution.
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nataraj wrote:
The way I read sheryl's post was that the deadly pattern had already manifested itself, i..e. the 3 in r8c1 was GONE ...

That would certainly be the result of a mistake, since 3 in r8c1 is part of the solution.


so maybe she didn't see the UR???
and you are right, definitely a mistake if the 3 is gone from r8c1. but maybe, just maybe, she got to a state in the puzzle where the UR was present and she just overlooked it.
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storm_norm wrote:

so maybe she didn't see the UR???
maybe she didn't know to look for the UR?


absolutely. good thing you posted the illustration!
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cgordon



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 769
Location: ontario, canada

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not into UR’s - but today’s UR was so blatant and in your face, it left no opportunity for us erudite experts to strut our stuff.
(Was gonna add one of them smiley emoticons to that - but figuring how to do that out is up there with Medusa wings or whatever)
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgordon wrote:

(Was gonna add one of them smiley emoticons to that - but figuring out how to do that is up there with Medusa wings or whatever)


Not at all.

Smileys are servile. You click them, they appear.
Very Happy

(at the end of the post). Sometimes needs a bit of cut and paste to get them into the right position. But far less difficult than posting a grid or finding a hidden single ...

Of course, to get the more elaborate "smileys", that is a different matter (and I would be lost without the help of my wife, there ...)

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cgordon



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 769
Location: ontario, canada

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nataraj: I click on a smiley emoticon and all I get is a ":D"
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montalbano1944



Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me it's a UR; R's 3 and 8, C's 1 and 3 so 29 can be removed from R8,C1.
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