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Menneske SH 3800211 ultra high rating

 
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Captain Pete



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 55
Location: Oley, PA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Menneske SH 3800211 ultra high rating Reply with quote

Seeing today's Easy puzzle, I went to Menneske for a challenge. I usually take on SH puzzles rated in their 50-75 range, and I'm usually able to solve those puzzles. I don't understand what that rating means, but I've almost never been able to solve the 100+ rated puzzles. Today, the puzzle that popped up was rated 1216, the highest rating I've ever seen at that site. Since this one was rated so high, I thought I'd give it a few minutes. To my amazement, I solved the puzzle, and not with any particularly advanced techniques. This only makes me more confused about the rating.
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Marty R.



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 5770
Location: Rochester, NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This only makes me more confused about the rating.

Welcome to the club. If you ever figure it out, let the rest of us know.

Quote:
Today, the puzzle that popped up was rated 1216, the highest rating I've ever seen at that site.

How's this one, rated at 17,199? (I haven't tried it)

http://www.menneske.no/sudoku/eng/showpuzzle.html?number=6903541
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marty R. wrote:
How's this one, rated at 17,199? (I haven't tried it)

Code:
 +-----------------------+
 | . . . | . 8 3 | 9 . . |
 | 1 . . | . . . | . 3 . |
 | . . 4 | . . . | . 7 . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | . 4 2 | . 3 . | . . . |
 | 6 . . | . . . | . . 4 |
 | . . . | . 7 . | . 1 . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | . 2 . | . . . | . . . |
 | . 8 . | . . 9 | 2 . . |
 | . . . | 2 5 . | . . 6 |
 +-----------------------+

Code:
 #6903541 after basics -- before finned X-Wing
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  257     567     57      |  14567   8       3       |  9       2456    125     |
 |  1       5679    5789    |  45679   2469    24567   |  4568    3       258     |
 |  23589   3569    4       |  1569    1269    1256    |  1568    7       1258    |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  5789    4       2       |  15689   3       1568    |  5678    5689    5789    |
 |  6       137     137     |  589     29      258     |  37      2589    4       |
 |  3589    359     3589    |  45689   7       24568   |  3568    1       23589   |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  34579   2       135679  |  134678  146     14678   |  134578  4589    135789  |
 |  3457    8       13567   |  13467   146     9       |  2       45      1357    |
 |  3479    1379    1379    |  2       5       1478    |  13478   489     6       |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 181 eliminations remain


Last edited by daj95376 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
.------------------------.------------------------.------------------------.
| 257     567     57     | 14567   8       3      | 9       2456    125    |
| 1       5679    5789   | 45679   2469    24567  | 4568    3       258    |
| 23589   3569    4      | 1569    1269    1256   | 1568    7       1258   |
:------------------------+------------------------+------------------------:
| 5789    4       2      | 15689   3       1568   | 5678    5689    5789   |
| 6       137     137    | 589     29      258    | 37      2589    4      |
| 3589    359     3589   | 45689   7       24568  | 3568    1       23589  |
:------------------------+------------------------+------------------------:
| 34579   2       135679 | 134678  146     14678  | 134578  4589    135789 |
| 3457    8       13567  | 13467   146     9      | 2       45      1357   |
| 3479    1379    1379   | 2       5       1478   | 13478   489     6      |
'------------------------'------------------------'------------------------'


there is coloring on 2 that removes the 2 in r3c6.

Steve R. is good at finding the strong links that result in eliminations that can be put together.

but if you pay attention to candidates 2 and 4, you can do loop.

(4)r1c4=(4)r1c8-(2)r1c8=(2)r5c8-(2)r6c9=(2)r6c7-(4)r6c7=(4)r6c4;

since each end stops in the same column, you can eliminate candidate 4 in r278c4
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tlanglet



Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Northern California Foothills

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely do not normally work on Menneske puzzles at this level, but gave this one a try. The original code for #3800211 is

Code:

 *-----------*
 |4.3|..8|...|
 |...|..2|.6.|
 |6..|.1.|...|
 |---+---+---|
 |...|.9.|...|
 |..8|45.|..2|
 |.1.|.2.|.3.|
 |---+---+---|
 |5.4|...|...|
 |...|..7|..3|
 |.39|...|.7.|
 *-----------*


Basics got me here

Code:

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 4        259      3        | 569      67       8        | 12579    1259     1579     |
 | 1789     589      17       | 359      347      2        | 345789   6        45789    |
 | 6        2589     27       | 359      1        45       | 2345789  24589    45789    |
 |----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------|
 | 237      4        2567     | 78       9        13       | 15678    158      15678    |
 | 379      69       8        | 4        5        13       | 1679     19       2        |
 | 79       1        57       | 78       2        6        | 45789    3        45789    |
 |----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------|
 | 5        7        4        | 1236     368      9        | 1268     128      168      |
 | 128      268      126      | 125      48       7        | 124589   124589   3        |
 | 128      3        9        | 1256     468      45       | 124568   7        14568    |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


My first pass uncovered a skyscraper, and three Type 3 URs with strong links (recently called "weasels"), but I sense that much more is needed to solve the puzzle.

Specifics to this point:
skyscrapper on <4> in r3c68
Type 3 UR (with strong link on 2 in row9) on <12> r79c47; r7c7<>1
Type 3 UR (with strong link on 4 in col8) on <49> r38c78; r3c7<>9
Type 3 UR (with strong link on 3 in row23 & col7) on <39> r23c47; r23c7<>9


Ted
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nataraj



Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1048
Location: near Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Ted's grid (with PMs), it is a two-step solution:

step 1: skyscraper (4) cols 6 and 8 removes 4 from r8c5,r9c7,r9c9

after cleanup,
Code:

+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 4       259     3        | 6       7       8        | 1259    1259    159      |
| 179     589     17       | 39      4       2        | 35789   6       5789     |
| 6       289     27       | 39      1       5        | 234789  2489    4789     |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 237*    4       2567#    | 78      9       13       | 15678   158     15678    |
| 379     69      8        | 4       5       13       | 1679    19      2        |
| 79      1       57       | 78      2       6        | 45789   3       45789    |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 5       7       4        | 12      3       9        | 1268    128     168      |
| 1-2     26*     126#     | 5       8       7        | 49      49      3        |
| 8       3       9        | 12      6       4        | 125     7       15       |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+



a few URs (one type 4, some with strong link), which I noted but did not use immediately. Instead ...

step 2: There is a generalized m-wing (2)r8c2=r4c1 via strong link (6) in col 3, that removes 2 from r8c1, which solves the puzzle.
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 #6903541 after basics -- before finned X-Wing
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  257     567     57      |  14567   8       3       |  9       2456    125     |
 |  1       5679    5789    |  45679   2469    24567   |  4568    3       258     |
 |  23589   3569    4       |  1569    1269    1256    |  1568    7       1258    |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  5789    4       2       |  15689   3       1568    |  5678    5689    5789    |
 |  6       137     137     |  589     29      258     |  37      2589    4       |
 |  3589    359     3589    |  45689   7       24568   |  3568    1       23589   |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  34579   2       135679  |  134678  146     14678   |  134578  4589    135789  |
 |  3457    8       13567   |  13467   146     9       |  2       45      1357    |
 |  3479    1379    1379    |  2       5       1478    |  13478   489     6       |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 181 eliminations remain

Continuous Nice Loop:

 [r1c8]=2=[r5c8]-2-[r5c56]=2=[r6c6]=4=[r6c4]-4-[r1c4]=4=[r1c8]
 => [r1c8]<>56, [r278c4]<>4, [r6c6]<>568

Basics => finish
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storm_norm



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 1741

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nataraj wrote:
From Ted's grid (with PMs), it is a two-step solution:

step 1: skyscraper (4) cols 6 and 8 removes 4 from r8c5,r9c7,r9c9

after cleanup,
Code:

+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 4       259     3        | 6       7       8        | 1259    1259    159      |
| 179     589     17       | 39      4       2        | 35789   6       5789     |
| 6       289     27       | 39      1       5        | 234789  2489    4789     |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 237*    4       2567#    | 78      9       13       | 15678   158     15678    |
| 379     69      8        | 4       5       13       | 1679    19      2        |
| 79      1       57       | 78      2       6        | 45789   3       45789    |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+
| 5       7       4        | 12      3       9        | 1268    128     168      |
| 1-2     26*     126#     | 5       8       7        | 49      49      3        |
| 8       3       9        | 12      6       4        | 125     7       15       |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------+



a few URs (one type 4, some with strong link), which I noted but did not use immediately. Instead ...

step 2: There is a generalized m-wing (2)r8c2=r4c1 via strong link (6) in col 3, that removes 2 from r8c1, which solves the puzzle.


nataraj, I see the light Exclamation Exclamation on the generalized m-wing.

(2=6)r8c2-(6)r8c3=(6)r4c3-(2)r4c3=(2)r4c1; r8c1<>2
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ravel



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 536

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norm already found Danny's loop, but not all eliminations.
Code:
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  257     567     57      | @14567   8       3       |  9     @#24-(56) 125     |
 |  1       5679    5789    | -45679   2469    24567   |  4568    3       258     |
 |  23589   3569    4       |  1569    1269    1256    |  1568    7       1258    |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  5789    4       2       |  15689   3       1568    |  5678    5689    5789    |
 |  6       137     137     |  589     29      258     |  37     #2589    4       |
 |  3589    359     3589    | @45689   7     @#24-(568)|  3568    1      #23589   |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  34579   2       135679  |  13-4678 146     14678   |  134578  4589    135789  |
 |  3457    8       13567   |  13-467  146     9       |  2       45      1357    |
 |  3479    1379    1379    |  2       5       1478    |  13478   489     6       |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
I saw these combinations of skyscraper/kites in 2 numbers sometimes in solutions, but i think, they are not very common.

Since one of the pincers must be 2 (kite) and one must be 4 (skyscraper), you can eliminate the other numbers there. And also the weak links in skyscraper/kite become strong by the (continous nice) loop (or bidirectional cycle).
Probably the main advantage of nice loop and AIC notation is, that these loop eliminations can be easily figured out:

[r1c8]=2=[r5c8]-2-[r5c56]=2=[r6c6]=4=[r6c4]-4-[r1c4]=4=[r1c8]
(4)r1c4=(4)r1c8-(2)r1c8=(2)r5c8-(2)r6c9=(2)r6c6-(4)r6c6=(4)r6c4

r1c8 is 2 or 4, one of r5c8 and r6c9 (or r5c56) must be 2, r6c6 is 2 or 4, one of r6c4 and r1c4 must be 4.
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Asellus



Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Sonoma County, CA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... started to post the same thing as ravel, then saw his post during a "Preview." The two loops are identical except for the minor detail that Norm uses the strong link on <2>s in r6 where Danny uses the grouped strong link on <2>s in b5.

This loop should be apparent from Medusa multi-coloring of the <2>s and <4>s, though it wouldn't necessarily be obvious to apply that method to such a grid!
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer to start continuous nice loops in a cell that's forced to two candidates because, sometimes, this is the only cell with eliminations. I'm embarrassed that I overlooked the (2) links in box 6 and row 6. Embarassed

I'm only modestly familiar with Eureka! notation. Is it common practice to show loops as not returning to the starting cell? This looks like a chain to me.

Norm wrote:
(4)r1c4=(4)r1c8-(2)r1c8=(2)r5c8-(2)r6c9=(2)r6c6-(4)r6c6=(4)r6c4;


Last edited by daj95376 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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daj95376



Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 3855

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nataraj wrote:
step 2: There is a generalized m-wing (2)r8c2=r4c1 via strong link (6) in col 3, that removes 2 from r8c1, which solves the puzzle.

Unless I'm mistaken, you also need the weak link (6) in row 8.

Code:
[r4c1]=2=[r4c3]=6=[r8c3]-6-[r8c2]-2  =>  [r8c1]<>2
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cgordon



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 769
Location: ontario, canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To quote the Sex Pistols: "Never Mind the Bollocks".

I finally went to the two <1>s in Row 1 and said let it be the left one.
That didn't work - so I said let it be the right one.
Then I went to the two <2>s in Row 1 and said let it be the left one.
That didn't work - so I said let it be the right one.

Had it done in no time at all.

As the Duke said: "Sometimes a man has got to do what a man's gotta do."
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